tv 60 Minutes CBS September 27, 2015 7:30pm-9:01pm EDT
captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can. >> rose: you're much talked about in america. there's much conversation, more so than any... >> ( translated ): maybe they have nothing else to do in america but to talk about me. >> rose: he seemed relaxed and ready to talk about everything when we met vladimir putin last week, and we asked him a lot of questions about himself... some have called you a czar. >> so what? you know, people call me different names. >> rose: ...about ukraine, about isis, about russia's place in the world. >> we do not have any obsession with being a superpower in the international arena. >> rose: but you are, in part, a major power because of the nuclear weapons you have. you are a force to be reckoned with.
>> i hope so. i definitely hope so. >> pelley: you know, neither party likes you very much. how are you going to get... >> i would say that's true, yes. >> pelley: how are you going to get anything through congress? >> when you say the party, the establishment doesn't. for instance, i noticed that... that... >> well, that's who congress is. how are you going to get anything...? >> i've gotten along with politicians my whole life. i've made a fortune on politicians. nobody knows politicians better than i do. i get along with politicians. >> pelley: you're not going to be able to buy them anymore. >> no, no, i'm not going to buy them. i'm not going to buy them. i'll get along with them. you've got to get along, and you've got to get people to do what you... it's called leadership. >> pelley: tonight, candidate donald trump tells us how he would tackle the most critical issues facing america today, and he unveils a tax plan which is sure to make news. >> and that's something i haven't told anybody. >> whitaker: it was the greatest prison escape ever.
el chapo ducks into the shower stall behind a privacy wall, the only spot hidden from security cameras, and then he disappears. he climbed down into the tunnel and climbed atop a motorcycle, especially rigged on rail tracks to speed him to freedom. i mean, that's something like no other criminal in history that you'll be able to find. >> kroft: i'm steve kroft. >> stahl: i'm lesley stahl. >> safer: i'm morley safer. >> whitaker: i'm bill whitaker. >> rose: i'm charlie rose. >> pelley: i'm scott pelley. those stories tonight on the 48th season premiere of "60 minutes".
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aircraft, military equipment and personnel in syria, he has put himself and his country at the center of that civil war and the fight against isis. now, when his relations with the united states seem to be at a post-cold war low, suffering under western economic sanctions imposed on russia, putin may be looking for a way to restore his international influence and gain the respect he seeks for his homeland. just before his trip to the u.s., putin invited us to meet him at his state residence outside moscow, where we found him characteristically confident and combative as he made the case that the focus in syria should be on fighting isis rather than removing syrian president assad. so, you would like to join the united states in the fight against isis? that's part of why you're there. others think that while that may be part of your goal, you're trying to save the assad administration because they've
been losing ground, and the war has not been going well for them. and you're there to rescue them. >> vladimir putin: ( translated ): well, you're right. we support the legitimate government of syria, and it's my deep belief that any actions to the contrary in order to destroy the legitimate government will create a situation which you can witness now in the other countries of the region or in other regions. for instance, in libya, where all the state institutions are disintegrated. we see a similar situation in iraq. and there is no other solution to the syrian crisis than strengthening the effective government structures and rendering them help in fighting terrorism but, at the same time, urging them to engage in positive dialogue with the rational opposition and conduct reform. >> rose: as you know, some of the coalition partners want to see president assad go first before they will support.
>> putin: i'd like to recommend to them the following: they should send this message to the syrian people. it's only the syrian people who are entitled to decide who should govern their country and how. >> rose: president assad, you support him. do you support what he is doing in syria and what is happening to those syrian people, those many millions of refugees and the hundreds of thousands of people that have been killed, many by his own force? >> putin: well, tell me, what do you think about those who support the opposition and mainly the terrorist organizations only in order to oust assad without thinking about what will happen to the country after all the government institutions have been demolished? today, you have repeatedly said
that assad is fighting against his own population. but look at those who are in control of 60% of the territory in syria. it's controlled by either isis or by others... >> rose: al-nusra? >> putin: ...such as al nusra and other terrorist organizations. they are recognized as terrorist organizations by the united states, by other states and by the united nations. >> rose: are you prepared to put russian combat troops on the ground in syria if it's necessary to defeat isis? >> putin: russia will not participate in any troop operations in the territory of syria or in any other states. well, at least we don't plan on it right now. but we are considering intensifying our work with both president assad and with our partners in other countries. >> rose: i come back to the problem that many people look
at, and they believe that assad helps isis; that his reprehensible conduct against the syrian people using barrel bombs and worse is a recruiting tool for isis and that if he was removed, transitioned at some point, it would be better in the fight against isis, al-nusra and others. >> putin: well, speaking in a professional language of intelligence services, i can tell you that this kind of assessment is an "active measure" by enemies of assad. it is anti-syrian propaganda. >> rose: much is being read into this, including this-- that this is a new effort for russia to take a leadership role in the middle east, and that it represents a new strategy by you.
is it? >> putin: not really, no. more than 2,000 fighters from russia and ex-soviet republics are in the territory of syria. there is a threat of their return to us. so, instead of waiting for their return, we are better off helping assad fight them on syrian territory. so, this is the most important thing which encourages us and pushes us to provide assistance to assad, and in general we want the situation in the region to stabilize. >> rose: but your pride in russia means that you would like to see russia play a bigger role in the world, and this is just one example. >> putin: well, it's not the goal in itself. i'm proud of russia, that's true, and we have something to be proud of, but we do not have any obsession with being a superpower in the international arena. >> rose: but you are in part a
major power because of the nuclear weapons you have. you are a force to be reckoned with. >> putin: ( laughs ) i hope so. i definitely hope so. otherwise, why do we have nuclear weapons at all? >> rose: recent tension between the united states and russia began after ukraine's president yanukovych was overthrown and fled to russia. putin responded by annexing crimea, leading the u.s. and western allies to impose tough economic sanctions against russia. >> putin: ukraine is a separate and major issue for us. it is our closest neighbor. we've always said that this is our sister country. it's not only a slavic people; we have common history, common culture, common religion, and many things in common. what i believe is absolutely
unacceptable is the resolution of internal political issues in the former u.s.s.r. republics through "color revolutions," through coup d'etats, through unconstitutional removal of power. that is totally unacceptable. our partners in the united states have supported those who ousted yanukovych. >> rose: you believe that the united states had something to do with the ousting of yanukovych, and he had to flee to russia. >> putin: i know that for sure. >> rose: how do you know that for sure? >> putin: i know those people who live in ukraine. we have thousands of contacts with them. we know who and where, when, who exactly met with someone and worked with those who ousted yanukovych, how they were supported, how much they were paid, how they were trained, where, in which countries, and
who those instructors were. we know everything. >> rose: for the record, the u.s. government has denied any involvement in the removal of the ukrainian leader. you respect the sovereignty of ukraine? >> putin: sure, but we want countries to respect the sovereignty of other countries, and ukraine in particular. respect for sovereignty means to not allow unconstitutional action and coup d'etats, the removal of legitimate power. >> rose: how will the renewal of legitimate power take place, in your judgment? how will that come about? and what role will russia play? >> putin: russia has not taken part and is not going to take part in any actions aimed at removing the legitimate government. >> rose: you have a military presence on the border of ukraine, and some even argue that there have been russian
troops in ukraine. >> putin: well, do you have a military presence in europe? >> rose: yes. >> putin: american tactical nuclear weapons are in europe. let's not forget that. what does this mean? does it mean that you've occupied germany, or that you've transformed the occupation forces into n.a.t.o. forces? >> putin: and if we have our military forces on our territory, on the border with some state, you believe this is a crime? >> rose: what vladimir putin thinks about america and about president obama might surprise you. that, and some insights into his personality, when we come back. here at the td ameritrade trader group, they work all the time. sup jj? working hard? working 24/7 on mobile trader, rated #1 trading app in the app store. it lets you trade stocks, options, futures... even advanced orders. and it offers more charts than a lot of the other
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>> rose: vladimir putin has wielded power in russia for more than 15 years, longer than many czars. he has not only reshaped his own country, but has begun to play a larger role in international affairs as an occasional ally, but more often foe of u.s. policy. presidential candidates have portrayed him as a bully, a gangster, or a pragmatic opponent who can be bargained with. one thing we found-- a strong personality who will engage in a conversation with blunt talk, charm and wit. you're much talked about in america. there's much conversation, more so than any... >> putin ( translated ): maybe they have nothing else to do in america but to talk about me. >> rose: no, no, or maybe they're curious people. ( laughter ) or maybe you're an interesting character. maybe that's what it is. they know of a former k.g.b. agent who came back and got into politics in st. petersburg, and became deputy mayor and then
came to moscow. and the interesting thing is, they see these images of you bare-chested on a horse, and they say, "there is a man who carefully cultivates his image of strength." >> putin: you know, i'm convinced that a person in my position must provide a positive example to people. and those areas where he can do this, he must do this. >> rose: you enjoy the work, you enjoy representing russia and, you know... you've been an intelligence officer. intelligence officers know how to read other people. that's part of the job, yes? yes? >> putin: it used to be. used to be. now, i have a different job, and that's been for quite a long time. ( laughter ) >> rose: somebody in russia told me there is no such thing as a former k.g.b. man. "once a k.g.b. man, always a
k.g.b. man." >> putin: well, you know, anything that we do, all this knowledge we acquire, all the experience, we'll have it forever, and we'll keep that. and we'll use it somehow. so, in this sense, yes, they're right. >> rose: a c.i.a. operative once said to me that one of the training you have is, you learn the capacity to be liked as well because you have to charm people. you... you have to charm people, you have to... yes, seduce them. let me... >> putin: well, if the c.i.a. told you, then that's the way it is because they are an expert on that. ( laughter ) >> rose: you have a popularity rating in russia that would make every politician in the world envious. why are you so popular?
>> putin: there is something that i have in common with every citizen of russia, the love for our motherland. >> rose: many of us were moved by an emotional moment at the time of the world war ii memorial because of the sacrifices russia had made. and you... you were seen with a picture of your father, with tears in your eyes. >> putin: my family suffered very major losses during the second world war, that's true. in my father's family, there were five brothers. i think four of them died. on my mother's side, the picture was pretty much the same. russia has suffered great
losses, and, of course, we can't forget that and we must not forget that. not to put blame on somebody, but to prevent anything like this from happening in the future. >> rose: you also have said that the worst thing to happen in the last century was the collapse of the soviet empire. there are those who look at ukraine-- especially ukraine and georgia-- and they believe that you do not want to recreate the soviet empire, but you do want to recreate a sphere of influence which you think russia deserves because of the relationship that has existed. >> putin: ( laughs ) >> rose: why are you smiling? ( laughter ) why? >> putin: you're making me happy because we're always suspected of some ambitions, and they always try to distort something or hint at something. i indeed said that i believe
that the collapse of the u.s.s.r. was a huge tragedy of the 20th century. you know why? >> rose: why? >> putin: because, first of all, in an instant, 25 million russian people found themselves beyond the borders of the russian state, although they were living within the borders of the soviet union. then, all of a sudden, the u.s.s.r. collapsed just overnight, in fact. and it's turned out that in the former soviet republics, 25 million russian people were living. they were living in a single country, and all of a sudden, they turned out to be outside the borders of the country. you see, this is a huge problem. first of all, there were everyday problems-- the separation of families, social problems, economic problems. you can't list them all. do you think it's normal that 25 million russian people were abroad all of a sudden? russia was the biggest divided nation in the world. it's not a problem?
well, maybe not for you, but it's a problem for me. >> rose: there are many people who are critical of russia, as you know. they say that it's more autocratic and less democratic. they say that political opponents and journalists have been killed and imprisoned in russia. they say your power is unchallenged. and they say that power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. what do you say to those people who worry about the climate, the atmosphere in russia? >> putin: well, there can be no democracy whatsoever without compliance with the law. everyone must observe the laws. this is the most important thing which we must bear in mind. as for these tragic events such as the death of people, including journalists, unfortunately, they do occur in all countries of the world. but if they happen in our country, we do the utmost to
find the criminals and to punish them. but the most important thing is that we will continue to improve our political system so that every citizen can feel that they do influence the life of the city, of the country, and of the society, and so that the authorities will feel responsible with regard to those people who trust them during the election campaigns. >> rose: if you, as a leader of this country, insist that the rule of law be adhered to, if you insist that justice be done, if you, because of your power, then it could go a long way to eliminating that perception. >> putin: well, a lot can be done, but not everyone succeeds with everything from the very start. how long did it take the democratic process to develop in the united states? do you believe that everything is perfect now from the point of view of democracy in the united states? if everything was perfect, there wouldn't be the problem of ferguson.
there would be no abuse by the police. but our task is to see all these problems and to respond properly. >> rose: so, the people who killed mr. nemtsov will be prosecuted to the fullest? >> putin: yes. i said it right away that this is a shame for our history, and criminals must be prosecuted and punished. >> rose: are you curious about america? more than simply a... another nation that you have to deal with? >> putin: of course, we are curious about what's going on. america exerts enormous influence on the situation in the world, as a whole. >> rose: what do you admire most about america? >> putin: i like the creativity. >> rose: creativity? >> putin: creativity when it comes to tackling your problems. their openness, openness and open-mindedness, because it
allows them to unleash the inner potential of their people. and thanks to that, america has attained such amazing results in developing their country. >> rose: let me ask you this-- what do you think of president obama? what's your evaluation of him? >> putin: i don't think i'm entitled to give any views regarding the president. that's up to the american people. >> rose: do you think his activities in foreign affairs reflect a weakness? >> putin: i don't think so at all. you see, here's the thing. in any country-- and in the united states, i believe this happens even more often than in any other country-- foreign political factors are used for domestic political battles. there is a presidential campaign coming up, so they're playing either the russian card or some other. >> rose: okay, but let me ask you this-- do you think he
listens to you? >> putin: well, i think we listen to each other in a way, especially when it comes to something that doesn't go counter to our own ideas about what we should and should not do. >> rose: do you think he considers russia-- you said you're not a superpower-- he considers russia an equal and considers you an equal, which is the way you want to be treated? >> putin: ( laughs ) well, you ask him. he's your president. how could i know what he thinks? >> rose: are you watching the republican political debates? >> putin: well, i don't watch them daily, no. >> rose: marco rubio is running for the republican nomination, and he said that you were like a gangster.
>> putin: how can i be a gangster if i worked for the k.g.b.? come on, that does not correspond to reality. >> rose: are people in russia fearful of you? >> putin: i think no, they're not. and most people trust me if they vote for me in the election. that's the most important thing. it places a huge responsibility on me, and i am grateful to people for this trust. but at the same time, i feel this huge burden of responsibility for doing what i do and for the results of my work. >> rose: as you know, some have called you a czar. >> putin: so what? you know, people call me different names. ( laughs ) >> rose: well, does the name fit? ( laughter ) >> putin: no, it does not fit me.
it's not important what you're called, whether these are well- wishers, friends or opponents. it's important what you do for the interests of the country that has entrusted you with such a position as the head of the russian state. >> this cbs sports update is brought to you by ford. i'm james brown with scores from nfl today. a painful win for the steelers as they lose quarterback ben roethlisberger to a knee injury. oakland moves to 2-is 1. adrian peterson scores two touch as the vikes win. the colts outscore the titans 21-6 for their first win and five teams move to 3-0, including carolina for the first time since '03. for more sports news and information, go to cbssports.com.
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candidates like one of his boastful buildings. first in the nation, first in iowa, first in new hampshire, and first for the last 11 weeks. political architects are amazed because trump rose on a shaky foundation. his "shoot from the lip" style managed to offend women, latinos, and american p.o.w.s. now, with summer over and four months to iowa, voters captivated by a larger-than-life personality begin to want the fine details. that's what we were looking for this past tuesday when we met trump, on top, in his fifth avenue penthouse in manhattan. he surprised us with news about his tax plan. so, now you've got everybody's attention. >> donald trump: i do have their attention. >> pelley: "revolution is easy, governing is hard." and what i'd like to get to is how you intend to govern the country if you are elected president. what's your tax plan?
>> trump: it's a substantial reduction for the middle-income people, because our middle class, scott, is being absolutely decimated. it will be a corporate also reduction. i think it'll be a great incentive for corporations. >> pelley: who are you going to raise taxes on? >> trump: if you look at actually raise, some very wealthy are going to be raised. some people that are getting unfair deductions are going to be raised. but overall, it's going to be a tremendous incentive to grow the economy, and we're going to take in the same or more money. and i think we're going to have something that's going to be spectacular. >> pelley: but republicans don't raise taxes. >> trump: well, we're not raising taxes. >> pelley: what kind of republican are you? >> trump: i mean, the only... well, i'm a pretty good republican, but i will tell you this-- i do have some differences. i don't want to have certain people on wall street getting away with paying no tax. >> pelley: you say you're going to lower taxes on the middle class. what are we talking about? >> trump: well, we're talking about numbers that will be announced over the next two days, and they'll be significant for the middle class. >> pelley: do you know what the numbers are? >> trump: i know them right now. >> pelley: well, why don't you tell me? this is "60 minutes." it's time to tell the folks at home the details of what you
intend to do. >> trump: i know, i know. i will say this-- there will be a large segment of our country that will have a zero rate, a zero rate. and that's something i haven't told anybody. >> pelley: you're talking about... >> trump: we're talking about people in the low-income brackets that are supposed to be paying taxes. many of them don't anyway. >> pelley: you're talking about making part of the population exempt from income tax. >> trump: that is correct. >> pelley: you're talking about cutting corporate income taxes? >> trump: that is correct. >> pelley: but there's a $19 trillion federal debt. >> trump: that's right. we're going to grow the economy so much... >> pelley: you can't afford to do those things. >> trump: no, no, but if the economy grows the way it should grow, if i bring jobs back from china, from japan, from mexico, from so many countries; everybody's taking our jobs. >> pelley: how do you get them back... >> trump: you get them back... >> pelley: ...those $20 an hour jobs that this country was built on? >> trump: right. exactly. you get them back by taking them away from other countries. i mean, if you look at china, we have... >> pelley: how does the president do that? >> trump: well, the president does it by not allowing places like china to devaluate... you know, they devalue their currency, scott, to such an extent that it's impossible for
our companies to compete. every time they do that, they suck the blood right out of our country. >> pelley: you're not running for president of china. >> trump: no, i'm running... >> pelley: you're not going to be able to prevent the devaluation of their currency. >> trump: oh, absolutely. sure you are, sure you are. look, they don't respect our president, they don't respect our country. they will respect me. they won't be doing it, but here's what we have to do-- if they don't come to the table, they're going to have a tax when they put their products into this country. and they're going to behave. >> pelley: so, you would tax their... >> trump: i would. >> pelley: ...products coming into the united states. you're talking about a trade war. >> trump: i don't want to say tax anything. i'm talking about a fair war. i'm talking about also, i have the smartest people on wall street lined up already. they're going to represent us on japan, on mexico. mexico, by the way, is taking our jobs. i love the mexican people. they're great people. but the leadership is too smart for our country. ford motor company, moving a $2.5 billion plant to mexico. mexico... >> pelley: but there's nothing you can do about that as president. >> trump: sure there is. >> pelley: how do you keep them from exporting american jobs to mexico? >> trump: let's say ford...
let's say ford moves to mexico. if they want to sell that car in the united states, they pay a tax. here's what's going to happen: they're not going to build their plant there. they're going to build it in the united states. >> pelley: but there is a north american free trade agreement. >> trump: and there shouldn't be. it's a disaster. >> pelley: but it is there. >> trump: okay, yeah, but... >> pelley: if you're president, you're going to have to live with it. >> trump: excuse me, we will either renegotiate it or we will break it. because, you know, every agreement has an end. >> pelley: you can't just break the law. >> trump: excuse me, every agreement has an end. every agreement has to be fair. every agreement has a defraud clause. we're being defrauded by all these countries. >> pelley: it's called free trade... >> trump: no, it's not. >> pelley: ...and it is a plank... >> trump: it's not the... >> pelley: ...of the republican platform. >> trump: scott, we need fair trade, not free trade. we need fair trade. it's got to be fair. >> pelley: trump's differences with republicans and democrats have him rising on a mood of national frustration. in our cbs news poll, nearly half of republicans in the early primary states say they're not dissatisfied with washington, they're angry. they tell us that business know how matters much more than
a political resume. and when they see the multibillionaire in his private 757, 80% of republicans say they see a strong leader. >> trump: so, i want to build our country. our country's been decimated. we have spent so much money in the middle east and other places. we... our roads are falling apart, our bridges are falling apart, everything's falling apart. we have to rebuild our country. >> pelley: this sounds great. how are you going to pay for it? >> trump: we're going to absolutely be able to pay for it. my economy will expand so rapidly, we're going to take jobs back from other countries and we will be able to pay for it. >> pelley: are you serious about deporting 12 million illegal immigrants? >> trump: well, nobody knows the number, but the answer is-- you just said it, they're illegal immigrants. they're here illegally. first of all, i have to start a little bit differently. we're going to build a wall, and we're going to create a border. it's going to be a great wall, and it's not going to be very expensive. and it's going to be peanuts
compared to the kind of numbers, you know? >> pelley: how are you going to build a wall... >> trump: it's called management. >> pelley: ...that is cheap and impenetrable? >> trump: it will be a real wall. it'll be a wall that works. it'll actually be a wall that will look good, believe it or not, because what they have now is a joke. they're... they're ugly, little and don't work. >> pelley: let's assume your wall has gone up. >> trump: good. >> pelley: 11 million, 12 million illegal immigrants... >> trump: or whatever the number is. >> pelley: ...still in the country. what do you do? >> trump: if they've done well, they're going out and they're coming back in legally. because you said it... >> pelley: you're rounding them all up. >> trump: we're rounding them up in a very humane way, in a very nice way. and they're going to be happy because they want to be legalized. and... and, by the way, i know it doesn't sound nice, but not everything is nice. >> pelley: it doesn't sound practical. >> trump: it is practical. it's going to work. they have to come here legally. and you know, when i talk about the wall-- and i said it before- - we're going to have a tremendous, beautiful, wide open door. nice big door. we want people to come into the country. >> pelley: you know, the problem with a lot of these ideas is
that the president of the united states is not the c.e.o. of america. >> trump: that's right. >> pelley: the constitution is going to tell you no. >> trump: we'll see. >> pelley: the congress is going to tell you no. >> trump: we'll see. >> pelley: the supreme court is going to tell you no. >> trump: well, we'll see. >> pelley: and you're not used to working in an environment like that. >> trump: look, i do it all the time. >> pelley: who tells you no? >> trump: i do it all the time. not that many people. i do it all the time. and i deal with governments all the time. i have... overseas, i have vast holdings overseas. >> pelley: what is the role of the u.s. military in the world? >> trump: i want to have a military that's so strong, so powerful, so modern, has the greatest equipment in the world, and that everybody says, "we're not going to mess with them." and we don't have that now. >> pelley: when has the u.s. military been too small to accomplish its mission? >> trump: it's not a question of too small. >> pelley: we're... >> trump: we... we don't have leadership. >> pelley: we're at war with isis as we sit here. how do you end it? >> trump: i would end isis forcefully. i think isis... what they did was unbelievable, what they did with james foley and the cutting off of heads of everybody. i mean, these people are totally
a disaster. now, let me just say this-- isis in syria, assad in syria, assad and isis are mortal enemies. we go in to fight isis. why aren't we letting isis go and fight assad, and then we pick up the remnants? why are we doing this? we're fighting isis, and assad has to be saying to himself, "they are the nicest or dumbest people that i've ever imagined." >> pelley: let me get this right-- so we lay off isis for now... >> trump: excuse me, let... >> pelley: ...lay off in syria, let them destroy assad, and then we go in behind that. >> trump: that's what i would say. yes, that's what i would say. >> pelley: or, he had another idea-- leave it to an old adversary. >> trump: if you look at syria, russia wants to get rid of isis. we want to get rid of isis. maybe let russia do it. let them get rid of isis. what the hell do we care? >> pelley: okay, that's syria. what do you do in iraq... >> trump: with that... >> pelley: ...with isis? >> trump: look, with isis in iraq, you've got to knock them out. you've got to knock them out.
you've got to fight them. you've got to fight them. you have to stand... >> pelley: on the ground? >> trump: if you need, you're going to have to do that, yes. >> pelley: troops on the ground. >> trump: yes. >> pelley: 15 years ago, he advocated a preemptive strike on north korea's nuclear program, which he still sees as a major threat. >> trump: well, you're going to have to do something at some point. >> pelley: you would drop a bomb on their nuclear reactor? >> trump: i would do something. you have to do something about north korea. now, what i would do is, i would make china respect us because china has extreme control over north korea. and i would say, "china, you better go in there, and you better do something because economically it could cost china." >> pelley: and they're going to listen to donald trump? >> trump: we d... yeah, they're going to listen to me. >> pelley: they don't listen to president of the united states... >> trump: they're going to listen to me. >> pelley: ...but donald trump they're going to listen... >> trump: just like i have the chinese banks in my buildings, they listen to me, they respect me. china has almost complete control over north korea. china will do that. and if they don't do that, they have to suffer economically because we have the engine that makes china work. you know, without the united states or without china sucking out all our money and our jobs, china would collapse in about two minutes. >> pelley: what's your plan for obamacare?
>> trump: obamacare's going to be repealed and replaced. obamacare is a disaster-- if you look at what's going on with premiums, where they're up 45%, 50%, 55%. >> pelley: how do you fix it? >> trump: there's many different ways. by the way, everybody's got to be covered. this is an un-republican thing for me to say because a lot of times, they say, "no, no, the lower 25%, they can't afford private," but... >> pelley: universal health care. >> trump: ...i am going to take care of everybody. i... i don't care if it costs me votes or not. everybody's going to be taken care of much better than they're taken care of now. >> pelley: the uninsured person is going to be taken care of, how? how? >> trump: they're going to be taken care of. i would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. and you know what? if this is probably... >> pelley: make a deal? who pays for it? >> trump: the government's going to pay for it, but we're going to save so much money on the other side. but for the most, it's going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies. and they can have their doctors, they can have plans, they can have everything. >> pelley: in your book, "the america we deserve," you proposed raising the social security retirement age to 70. is that still your plan?
>> trump: yeah, not anymore because now what i want to do is take money back from other countries that are killing us, and i want to save social security. and we're going to save it without increases. we're not going to raise the age, and it will be just fine. >> pelley: how are you going to do that? it is a basket case? >> trump: through capability. we will set it up by making our country rich again. >> pelley: you know, the... the heart of all of your plans seems to be, "we're going to be rich." >> trump: we are going to do great. as a country, we are going to do great. >> pelley: you know, neither party likes you very much. how are you going to get... >> trump: i would say that's true, yes. >> pelley: how are you going to get anything through congress? >> trump: when you say the party, the establishment doesn't. for instance, i noticed that... that... >> pelley: well, that's who congress is. how are you going to get anything... >> trump: that's... oh, i'll get along. i get... i've gotten along with politicians my whole life. i've made a fortune on politicians. nobody knows politicians better than i do. i get along with politicians. >> pelley: you're not going to be able to buy them anymore. >> trump: no, no, i'm not going to buy them. i'm not going to buy them. i'll get along with them. you've got to get along, and you've got to get people to do what you... it's called leadership. we don't have any leadership right now.
>> pelley: in dallas this month, he nearly filled a 20,000-seat arena. our poll shows that his support extends from republicans to independents, young and old, evangelical and not. but his poll numbers did slip slightly last week, and nationally among all voters, majorities of blacks and hispanics disapprove. trump told us he will pay for his campaign all the way through the nomination. >> trump: yeah, i'm totally willing to. i'm self-funding my campaign. now, once you get the nomination, then the republican party kicks in and they raise all this money, and they do whatever they have to do. but i am absolutely 100% doing it myself. >> pelley: you love hearing about yourself. >> trump: i do. >> pelley: it is oxygen to you. what does that tell us about donald trump? >> trump: no, if i'm on a show, i'll turn on the show. but i don't think i'm any different than anybody else. if somebody's... >> pelley: i was in your office. all the magazines on your desk... >> trump: well, i have a lot of covers. >> pelley: ...are covers of you. >> trump: i think i have more covers...
>> pelley: all the pictures on the wall are pictures of you. >> trump: well, it's cheaper than wallpaper. >> pelley: what are we supposed to take from that? >> trump: you know, look, i'm on a lot of covers-- i think maybe more than almost any supermodel. i think more than any supermodel. but in a way, that is a sign of respect. people are respecting what you are doing. >> pelley: so, this is the corner office at 5th avenue and 57th, probably the most expensive intersection in the world. >> trump: i would say it is, absolutely. >> pelley: but there isn't enough respect, he told us, for the business he built. trump real estate scrapes the skies of the world-- apartments, offices, hotels, casinos, famous golf courses and television shows. he started with his father's successful real estate, and now trump says he's worth $10 billion. others estimate $4 billion-- real estate values are notoriously variable. and your father also used to tell you, if i have this right, "attack, attack, attack." >> trump: i'll tell you what-- my father was a really good man with a tremendous heart, but he was a tough cookie.
>> pelley: with a tougher hide, perhaps, than his son, who has sometimes gone to war with reporters. why so thin-skinned? >> trump: i don't like lies. i... i don't mind a bad story. if you did a bad story on me for "60 minutes," if it were a fair story, i wouldn't be thin- skinned at all. you know, some of the media is among the worst people i've ever met. and i mean a pretty good percentage is really a terrible group of people. they write lies, they write false stories. they know they're false. it makes no difference. and frankly, i don't call it thin-skinned; i'm angry. >> pelley: an impression is created, though, that you like to dish it out but you can't take a punch. >> trump: oh, i think i can take it. i... i could take it if it's fair. again, if people say things that are false-- which happens a lot with me-- if people say things that are false, i will fight, like, harder than anybody. if i do something wrong-- and that happens-- and they write a fair story that i did something wrong, there's nothing to fight about. i can handle that.
i don't like lying. you know, i'm a very honorable guy. i don't like lies. >> pelley: what personal hardship has defined your character? >> trump: well, i think i've had some, but i had a brother who was a fantastic guy, fred. and he was a young man, and he passed away at a fairly young age, and he was an alcoholic. he would tell me constantly, "don't drink." and i've never had a drink. i own the largest winery on the east coast and yet i don't drink, which is a little weird. but he'd say, "don't drink, don't smoke." and he would tell me all the time because he had a problem with it. he died of alcoholism. >> pelley: that is a warning that he's pressed on his children, three of whom run his companies. >> trump: i have children that are very good children. and... and so far, i knock on wood. right, you know, who knows? >> pelley: very accomplished, your three older children. >> trump: terrific people. but i say, "no drugs, no alcohol, no cigarettes." >> pelley: millions of people are wondering right now whether
you are serious or whether this is a reality show. yesterday, you said, "if the presidency doesn't work out, i'll go back to my business." >> trump: well, that's true. >> pelley: do you intend... >> trump: i mean, that's true. i can't guarantee that... >> pelley: ...to be president, or not? >> trump: totally. but that's true. i always like to have a downside. i love my business. i didn't want to do this; i just see our country as going to hell, and i felt i had to do it. >> there's more from president putin and donald trump... >> pelley: you know what makes people uncomfortable about you? >> tell me. >> pelley: you are a hurricane of words. >> ...at 60minutesovertime.com i don't want to live with the uncertainties of hep c. or wonder... ...whether i should seek treatment. i am ready. because today there's harvoni. a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. harvoni is proven to cure up to 99% of patients... ...who've had no prior treatment.
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>> whitaker: by now, you've probably heard of one of the greatest prison breaks of all time. it happened last july. joaquin guzman-- known by his spanish nickname, "el chapo," or "shorty"-- is one of the most notorious and violent drug lords in the world. he was a high value captive; he had broken out of prison before. this time, he was locked away in a maximum security penitentiary, the tightest prison in mexico. and yet he got away. and even more stunning-- he did so through a mile-long escape tunnel that opened up right into his shower stall, the only corner of his tiny cell security cameras couldn't see. even those who caught him last year were shocked by the escape. >> jim dinkins: gets arrested
for the second time, knowing that he's escaped once before. goes to prison and is still able to escape a second time. i mean, that's something like no other criminal in history that you'll be able to find. >> whitaker: until he retired last year, jim dinkins was head of homeland security investigations. he was part of the international manhunt for el chapo for more than a decade. >> dinkins: you know, he was literally in a well-fortified, constructed prison designed to prevent such an escape. >> whitaker: the maximum security prison in mexico. >> dinkins: yes. designed to pentrate people from coming from air and coming from land. but they didn't anticipate him coming from underground. so, that's exactly what he did. >> whitaker: almost from the moment he was delivered here to altiplano prison in february 2014, a construction crew from his sinaloa cartel began digging a tunnel to free him. the walls here are as much as three feet thick. the airspace above is restricted.
cell phones, prison officials say, are jammed for miles around. but none of that made a difference. from almost a mile away, inside this hastily built cinderblock structure in a farmer's field, chapo's men dug down about three stories and then burrowed 4,921 feet straight toward altiplano. a massive construction project right outside the prison might have masked the noise of the underground activity. the tunnel went under the prison wall and beneath the plumbing, and, with pinpoint accuracy, it emerged directly into the shower stall of guzman's ground level cell. >> dinkins: it's very difficult to navigate underground. this tunnel, i believe, went from point a to point b with only minor deviations, if any. and that is an engineering marvel in and of itself. >> whitaker: how difficult is that? >> dinkins: it's very, very difficult. but i'm sure, when the boss is
behind prison, you put your best team and your best foot forward. and they apparently did. >> whitaker: at 8:52 the night of saturday, july 11, el chapo ducks into the shower stall, behind a privacy wall-- the only spot in the five-foot by six- foot cell hidden from security cameras-- and then he disappears. he climbed down into the tunnel and climbed atop a motorcycle especially rigged on rail tracks to speed him to freedom. by the time the alarm sounded and a search began, guzman had vanished into the night. when the mexican agents located the cinder block structure where the escape tunnel began, the construction crew also was long gone, leaving behind the tools they had used for the project-- a generator, emergency oxygen tanks, a disk saw and car batteries. what was your reaction when you heard that el chapo had escaped again? >> chuck rosenberg: disappointed, not shocked. >> whitaker: chuck rosenberg is head of the u.s. drug
enforcement administration. he was in a maximum security prison. >> rosenberg: he had escaped previously in 2001, so it had happened before. we knew... we knew he intended to do it again. >> whitaker: you knew he was planning to do it again? >> rosenberg: we knew that he and his folks back in sinaloa wanted to break him out. we had general chatter, maybe a year or so before he actually broke out a second time, about what they hoped to do. but there was nothing in that information we had about tunnels. >> dinkins: you know, he's a notorious tunnel manufacturer and... and architect? >> whitaker: the tunnel king? >> dinkins: the tunnel king. you know, he's responsible for more sophisticated tunnels than i think any other person in the history of drug trafficking in mexico. and so, it's somewhat ironic that he was able to escape using one of the techniques that he really perfected over the last, you know, decade plus. >> whitaker: ironic, but not terribly surprising.
during the last manhunt for el chapo, his pursuers discovered this, the tub. look at this. a tunnel entrance also concealed in the plumbing-- in this case, beneath the tub. that's amazing. chapo devised ingenious smuggling methods. he packed drugs into fake cucumbers and bananas and mixed them in with shipments of real produce. but the thing he worked hardest on was making sure he could always get away. guzman was the first mexican drug trafficker to hire architects and mining engineers to build elaborate super tunnels, complete with ventilation systems, electricity and railways, to ferry drugs under the u.s./mexico border. mexican authorities led us to a tunnel they found unfinished and just short of the border fence in tijuana. the tunnel was discovered just a couple of weeks after el chapo's great escape. his cartel wasn't just focused
on building his escape tunnel, they continued building these drug tunnels at the same time. this border between san diego and tijuana is one of the busiest international commercial zones in the world. you'll see a steady stream of trucks passing north and south. what you can't see is that beneath one four-mile stretch of this border, it's crisscrossed with dozens of smuggling tunnels. why? because this industrial part of tijuana is right across the fence from acres and acres of warehouses in the u.s. drug smugglers dig down inside a building over here, pop up inside a warehouse in the u.s. just a couple of hundred yards away. this is where el chapo's sinaloa cartel honed its' tunneling technique. so, when did el chapo first start digging tunnels here in this area? >> joe dimeglio: on record, we have the first tunnel was in 2010. >> whitaker: joe dimeglio is the chief of the san diego tunnel
task force made up of agents from homeland security, the border patrol and d.e.a. the task force was established to respond to what the government deems a threat to national security. >> dimeglio: and down this road, there's been multiple tunnels found in warehouses here. >> whitaker: how far is this from the border? >> dimeglio: this is probably about, like, 1,400 feet. >> whitaker: most tunnels are twice that length. what makes this area so appealing to them? >> dimeglio: just the infrastructure on both sides of the border, in otay mesa and in tijuana. you have all the commercial businesses there-- import, export and just the vast amount of warehouses there that are doing legitimate business. and it's easy to conceal an illegitimate business within those warehouses, and it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. >> whitaker: how much does it cost them to build one of these tunnels? >> dimeglio: we've estimated it costs the cartel anywhere between $1 million to $2 million. if they have one successful push through of narcotics, they've
paid for that tunnel and then some >> whitaker: one load gets through? >> dimeglio: one load, not just one kilo. we're talking, you know, tons of narcotics going through. >> whitaker: a load of marijuana could be worth as much as $5 million to $6 million. smugglers use the tunnels primarily to move marijuana because its too bulky, too smelly, too easy to detect to transport over land. dimeglio's team took us down into one of el chapo's now- closed subterranean passageways. they are dug through the clay- like soil with picks, shovels and small power tools. >> dimeglio: you can see the spade marks from the air hammer drill on the ceiling going across, and you see how they worked their way through the tunnel here as they were constructing it. you have rails, the rail system, the rail cart, the lighting, the ventilation. but it's the concealment method that they've changed and became more sophisticated. >> whitaker: more elaborate, harder to find? >> dimeglio: exactly. >> whitaker: so, what are they putting it under up on top?
>> dimeglio: this specific entry point for this tunnel was the floor, a bathroom floor that was on a hydraulic lift. so, the lift actually lowered into another room which was 30 feet below ground. >> whitaker: the task force uses this ground penetrating radar to try and find hidden entrances to tunnels, but it is only effective down to ten feet below the surface. the tunnels themselves are so deep-- some as much as 90 feet underground-- the task force has found no technology that can detect them-- not satellites, sonar or radar. so, how do they find them? >> dinkins: it was good old fashioned police work that led to those tunnels being discovered. >> whitaker: so, you get a tip off from an informant? or you see somebody acting suspiciously? >> dinkins: yes. i mean, some of them are just as... as easy as having a neighbor who calls in a nearby warehouse that says, "i hear something underneath my floor, and i don't know what it is." >> whitaker: the tunnel that el chapo's cartel built to break him out of prison, is there
anything comparable to that here? >> dimeglio: one of my guys actually went down there from the task force and actually walked in that tunnel and observed it. and he came back, and i asked him, "so what did you think?" he goes, "it's no different than what we see here. it's exactly the same." >> whitaker: so, they learned it here? >> dimeglio: they learned it here, you know, mastering... every step that they go, every tunnel that they build, they learn from. >> whitaker: along the way, el chapo-- named to "forbes" magazine's list of billionaires-- also learned his vast riches meant almost anything could be had for a price, possibly even his freedom. d.e.a. chief chuck rosenberg says he was disgusted by el chapo's prison break. a tunnel right under the maximum security prison and up into his cell. >> rosenberg: up into his shower stall. >> whitaker: how does that happen? >> rosenberg: we work with our mexican counterparts all the time on cases big and small.
there's lots and lots of good people down there, men and women who are with us in this. there's also a degree of corruption down there that is disappointing, stunning, pick your adjective. that's how it happens. >> whitaker: how high up do his tentacles of corruption and bribes, how high up do they reach? >> rosenberg: i don't know specifically how high up they reach. my sense is that they're both broad and deep, that they go throughout the mexican government. >> whitaker: u.s. law enforcement officials knew they had a reliable partner in the mexican marines the last time they hunted el chapo. we watched one of their training exercises last year and joined them on patrol in sinaloa, a mountainous state along mexico's pacific coast where the cartel still rules. this is culiacan, the capital of sinaloa. this is el chapo's home turf. el chapo had seven safe houses
here, all connected by tunnels. in february, 2014, the marines and mexican federal agents began rounding up chapo's henchmen. they led authorities to this nondescript house in the midst of a middle class neighborhood. it was a fortress. the marines had to ram their way through a reinforced steel door. it took you eight minutes to open the door? >> si, ocho minutos. >> whitaker: when they got inside, el chapo was nowhere to be found, but they did find the escape hatch beneath the tub, which led to a labyrinth of interlocking passageways between safe houses and the sewer system of culiacan. while marines battered down the front door, they say guzman, startled, barefoot and in his underwear, clambered down these stairs and escaped through this tunnel with his bodyguard and two women. even though they had a ten-
minute head-start, the marines told us they could hear the fugitives splashing through the water, but they were too far ahead to catch. when the marines emerged from this spillway by the river, el chapo was gone. chapo and his wife, a one-time beauty queen, their twin toddlers, a nanny, a cook and his most trusted bodyguard were desperately trying to shake the marines off their trail. they ditched their phones and got new numbers. five days later, american agents traced the new phone of chapo's bodyguard to the resort city of mazatlan, 136 miles away, and to this beachfront building. they shared that intelligence with the mexicans. at exactly 6:40 a.m. on february 22, 2014, the marines crashed through the door of number 401. the marines took guzman into custody. he was fingerprinted and examined for distinguishing marks and scars.
he was also photographed, and then, after a short helicopter flight, delivered to the gates of altiplano, an impregnable penitentiary-- or so the mexicans claimed. it seems to me that for somebody to break out of a maximum security prison that there had to be help from the inside. >> rosenberg: logically, there had to be some sort of help. had to be. >> whitaker: had to be blueprints and schematics, >> rosenberg: yeah. unless they just tunneled up and got very luck and hit his shower stall, you bet they would have needed something. there's no question in my mind that he had help. >> whitaker: at the time of el chapo's prison break, the u.s. government was pressing mexico to extradite him, send him to trial here. where was the extradition process when he escaped? >> rosenberg: we had made our request. they knew of it. they want to prosecute a mexican who committed crimes in mexico in their country. it makes perfect sense. the reason we ask for extradition is because his
crimes have so grievously injured communities around the united states, and we were concerned that he would do just what he did, escape justice in mexico. that wouldn't happen here. >> whitaker: guzman's latest, daring getaway has only magnified the myth of a criminal mastermind who could outsmart all of his pursuers. ♪ in culiacan, he's a bona fide folk hero. his admirers celebrate his exploits, singing that "he laughs at the law." there have been reported sightings of him across mexico and latin america. there are social media and blog posts purporting to show him in an airplane or sipping beer at a cafe. el chapo also popped up in the u.s. presidential race, supposedly feuding on twitter with donald trump. u.s. and mexican authorities told us none of those things is true. do you have any idea where he is now?
>> rosenberg: no. >> whitaker: you think he would return home to sinaloa? >> rosenberg: i don't want to guess. we got him twice, i bet we'll get him again. >> whitaker: you do? >> rosenberg: i do. >> whitaker: you're confident you'll get him again? >> rosenberg: i'm reasonably confident we'll get him again. >> dimeglio: i am not very confident that we'll ever catch him again. >> whitaker: why is that? >> dimeglio: because when you go after chapo, it's not like going after and arresting your local drug dealer or local criminal. this is somebody you have to bring in a whole team and army, literally, of soldiers and military folks and police officers to go after him and secure him. this is a big operation, to go after somebody like chapo. and it took months, months and years and years to do that once before. >> whitaker: do you think he learned from the past what you're going to do and what he shouldn't do? >> dimeglio: absolutely. i think he... we've got a smarter chapo that's out on the street today. >> whitaker: to help mexico in the manhunt, the u.s. government is once again providing intelligence and equipment, and a $5 million reward.
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this is a pos, not a ppo. a ppo? it's a pos. i want a pos or i have a pos? you have a pos. so you want me to have a ppo? you have a pos, not a ppo that means... i want a ppo? (child crying) you have a pos, it's like a hmo. it means you a referral from a pcp. a pcp? a primary care physician. a pos means i need a pcp? (child crying) a referral. (child crying) find a doctor in your network before you book... with zocdoc. > stahl: now, an update on a story we called "rare earth elements" that we first broadcast last march. rare earths are crucial to electronic technology.
you can't make a laptop or smart phone or fighter jet without them. one country, china, has a virtual global monopoly on the rare earths mining industry, and has used that power to disrupt the world supply. this paved the way for constantine karayannopoulos, the chairman of molycorp, to restart operations at the only rare earth mine in the united states, and the birthplace of the rare earth revolution. are we actually walking on rare earth elements right now? >> karayannopoulos: we're physically on the ore body. >> stahl: we are right on it. >> karayannopoulos: it starts at the top of the mine, then comes down. and we're walking on it, and it goes in that direction. >> stahl: so, what are rare earth elements? if you ever took high school chemistry, you learned that they're clumped together at the end of the periodic table-- atomic numbers 57 through 71-- and they have difficult to pronounce greek or scandinavian
names. >> karayannopoulos: lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, praseodymium, samarium, terbium. >> stahl: some of them are phosphorescent. erbium amplifies light and is used in fiber optic cables. gadolinium has magnetic properties and is used in m.r.i. machines and x-rays. as for neodymium, you may be carrying some of it in your pocket. >> karayannopoulos: next time your phone vibrates, think of us, because the vibration motor is a small motor that contains a tiny neodymium magnet in it. >> stahl: karayannopoulos showed us around a new model home to illustrate that rare earths are making our appliances energy- efficient, like state of the art refrigerators, touch screen thermostats, energy-efficient light bulbs, the air conditioning systems. they're also in our cars in the form of catalytic converters, sensors, and hybrid car batteries. >> karayannopoulos: hybrids, in
particular, use a lot more because they contain electric motors that would not function without rare earths. >> stahl: a prius has roughly 25 pounds of rare earths. and they're hidden in plain sight in our everyday lives, in our computers and gadgets. even the lights and cameras we used to film this story are chock full of rare earths. what i'm getting from you is that modern life depends on these elements. >> karayannopoulos: absolutely. >> stahl: the pentagon has begun stockpiling rare earths, and industry is researching new technologies that would replace them. do you get any help from the u.s. government? they want to have a rare earth industry here. >> karayannopoulos: encouragement, yeah. >> stahl: encouragement, that's it? >> karayannopoulos: yeah. >> stahl: the government is not offering incentives like tax breaks or subsidies that would lure businesses into the market. what needs to change to bring more of the industry back to the united states?
>> karayannopoulos: well, first of all, we need to take a long- term view. it took 20 years to lose the dominant position, at least 20 years, and it's probably going to take us ten, 15 years if we execute for some of these supply chains to start coming back. >> stahl: it may take a lot longer than that. molycorp, which declared bankruptcy in june, is shutting down the one and only american rare earths mine. in the mail this week, viewers wrote about our story on pope francis. many asked about the gift scott pelley gave the pope when he met him in st. peter's square. >> pelley: may i present this book to you, sir, as a gift from all of us? >> stahl: the book was an italian edition of john steinbeck's classic, "the grapes of wrath," that tells the story of a family of migrants fleeing oklahoma's dust bowl. the plight of migrants has been a cause close to francis' heart. one viewer took us to task for being indiscreet, reporting the pope's attitude about security.
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